Season 1: Episode 3: Xin Tao

Partner at Baker McKenzie

How did he make it to the top at BigLaw as a non-native English speaker?

Before Xin made partner at Baker McKenzie, he could not find many role models who have the exact same background as his. He moved to the U.S. from China in his early twenties to pursue a graduate degree in biochemistry. He was increasingly disillusioned about the scientific research he was doing. One day, he was studying in the library with a friend, who was studying for the LSAT. It all started with a joke about whether Xin would be able to beat his friend on the test. Xin ended up going to law school and the rest is history.

By now you have probably read the Paul Hasting’s presentation on the non-negotiable expectations for junior associates, what does a BigLaw partner think of that? How did Xin find his first job in the U.S. leveraging the alum network at Georgetown Law? How did he survive and thrive at BigLaw? What are the challenges he faced as a non-native English speaker and how did he overcome it? How does he develop meaningful relationships with colleagues and clients?

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By now most has heard about Paul Hasting’s presentation the “Non-Negotiable Expectations” for the junior associates, as a BigLaw partner, what is your take on that?

Regarding the Paul Hasting presentation, arguments can be made from both sides. Expectations for junior associates depend on the type of practice, and the client’s needs. I can only speak for myself and my practice - Life Science Regulatory Practice, and I do not see the point of asking my junior associates to be available 24/7 and “move mountains.” If such a request is made by clients, typically during government enforcement actions, I see it as my job, a partner at the firm, to always be available and willing to “move mountains” for my clients but only if the mountains indeed need to be moved, and the client is not always right, otherwise they would not need us. I would not put a junior associate in that position. I don't think it would serve our clients well.  It is critical for us to invest in our junior associates by giving them time and opportunities to explore, learn new skills, grow both as a professional and as a person, and make meaningful connections that would be beneficial to them. Loyalty is a two-way street. 

Where did you grow up? Why did you choose to study law?

I was born and raised in China and moved to the U.S. for graduate school. When I first arrived in 2006, I had planned to pursue a PhD in biochemistry with the hope of becoming a college professor in China. However, as I progressed through graduate school, I found that the research was quite removed from daily life. My studies focused on circadian rhythm and biological clock. Although the research was aimed at changing these rhythms, it was conducted using fruit flies. The distance between the research and its practical applications was far too great.

At the time, there was a friend mentioned LSAT (the law school admission test). It all began with a joke. We were in the library one day, when he mentioned how challenging the LSAT was. I was like, “I’m going to beat you on this.” My friend, who is now a successful lawyer and has his own firm, challenged me on the test. I accepted his challenge and discovered that I loved the idea of getting paid to do something I found intellectually stimulating. I decided to give it a try, and I have been enjoying the work ever since.

What languages do you speak? Is your international background helpful doing what you do?  

I speak Mandarin Chinese and English. My practice focuses primarily on FDA (Food and Drug Administration) compliance. I help food and drug companies understand and comply with the laws and regulations. My international background and Mandarin language skills are certainly beneficial in my career. However, I am still learning how to effectively leverage them. Corporate law seems to be an area where my background could be more useful, especially in assisting Chinese companies with IPOs, cross border transactions, and litigations. International trade is also an excellent area for lawyers with international backgrounds to enter. While I have a few Chinese clients, they are more like friends to me and tend to be more loyal than my U.S. clients.

As a partner at BigLaw, how do you develop and maintain business relationships with your clients?

I get most of my clients from word of mouth. I think the most effective way of marketing is doing good work for your existing clients and relying on their referrals. I also engage in speaking and writing in my field. I remember one of my clients, the General Counsel of a Japanese company reached out to me after hearing me speak at a conference, and we had multiple calls. Eventually, he engaged me for US work for the company, though I don't speak Japanese. I believe it's important to build a personal brand and set yourself apart. If you just copy the approach of established lawyers, it may be difficult to differentiate yourself.

New lawyers may want to think about what makes them unique. For instance, instead of just marketing yourself as a corporate lawyer who speaks Chinese and English, you could add unique experience such as have worked for the Ministry of Commerce in China for a couple of years. This will make you more attractive to potential clients. It's also essential to exceed your existing clients' expectations by offering them extra help and support. For example, if you see an interesting news article related to their business, you could send it to them. Additionally, if you happen to be in the same area for business, you could schedule a meeting with them. If you are sincerely trying to help, people will appreciate and react to that.

What is your thoughts on BigLaw’s appetite on hiring more international lawyers either with a JD or a LLM degree?

About 20 years ago, Chinese lawyers with a U.S. law degree could help Chinese companies get listed at the U.S. stock market. That created many opportunities for talented individuals with a Chinese background. Nowadays, it seems that many people are interested in international trade law, and combining a J.D. or a LL.M. with this specialty can lead to potential job opportunities. However, getting your foot in the door at BigLaw can be challenging. Many international lawyers have returned to China to work in satellite offices of US law firms or in Hong Kong.

I don’t think the law firms intentionally exclude individuals, but rather that the opportunities depend on the market. If there is a growth opportunity, law firms will hire people. It's unfair to expect law students to predict the future, and it's difficult for anyone to do so. The good news is that the US legal market is still growing, and there are opportunities in areas such as AI (artificial intelligence), data privacy, and antitrust, etc. Chinese background can be an advantage, but it's not essential at the beginning of a career. A degree in mathematics or economics can make someone competitive in antitrust, for example. Previous work experience in government agencies can also be valuable with regulatory work.

How did you make it as a lawyer with international background at BigLaw? What are the obstacles you have encountered and how did you overcome them?

When I first joined my old firm, a partner from another practice group wanted to work with me on a memo related to my area of expertise, the FDA. We worked together, and at the end of the project, the partner emailed my practice group lead saying that, “I’m so impressed by Xin. I thought he’s from China. I thought I needed to work on his memo, and revise his memo extensively. He probably didn’t write very good English. I was so impressed.” My group lead sent that email to me as a compliment, I was actually not very happy about the assumption the partner was making only because of my background.

Everyone has biases. I have bias too, right? I can tell you that if my personal experience proves anything, it is that you work harder than anyone else. Keep doing it. You have to do everything extra to get the same results. I work more hours, do more business development, and I work over the weekends. I have to put in more effort to prove myself.

While bias is not something we can change overnight. However, it has improved over time. Looking at history, in the 1960s and 1970s, Jewish people faced similar bias in the workplace. Elite law firms refused to hire them or only gave them limiting positions. To overcome this, Jewish lawyers formed their own law firms. They worked hard, developed new practice area, and gradually built their own elite law firms. While leveraging my background may make it easier for me to get clients from China, for now I'm taking the harder route by working harder than my native speaker colleagues. I work weekends and overnight to compete with them.

I think there are two opposing trends in the legal industry. On one hand, there is a push for globalization and the idea that innovation has no borders. However, there is also a growing focus on domestic markets and the so-called "decoupling" effect regarding U.S. China Relations. In the U.S., for example, the legal market is performing better than its European and Asian counterparts. If international lawyers only focus on cross-border work, they may miss out on opportunities in their domestic markets. It’s important for lawyers to diversify their skill sets and not rely solely on international work. There is an oversupply of lawyers in the US in general, and at BigLaw in particular. While there may be some changes in the future, I don't anticipate a significant shift anytime soon.

How did you get your first job in the United States?

I was fortunate to secure a summer associate position during my 1L summer, just after the recession hit. I applied to numerous law firms and landed a job at a mid-sized firm called Keller & Heckman. The founder of the firm was a Georgetown law grad. He told me that they haven't got anyone from Georgetown for a long time. They were happy that I was going to join them. I actually found the firm through my alumni network, using a database that listed law firms hiring 1L for summer associate positions. I applied to every firm in the US that was hiring 1Ls. I probably sent out hundreds of applications. I got lucky and got offered a permanent position.

What are you looking for in new lawyers who want to enter your practice area?

I tend to prefer working with individuals who have similar backgrounds as mine, as I come from a scientific background and law is my second career. Given the nature of my practice, I prefer team members who have previously worked in government agencies, as their experience can complement mine. When it comes to personality, I prefer to work with motivated individuals who are self-starters with an entrepreneurial mindset. They must be highly motivated and committed to giving their all to succeed, as there is no room for half-hearted efforts in BigLaw. I am always on the lookout for team members who bring something new to the table and can offer fresh perspectives. This is crucial in a highly competitive practice area where we need to stand out and build our personal brands.

Who is your inspiration in the law?

I have met many successful lawyers, but I haven't found anyone with a similar background as myself as a first-generation immigrant in BigLaw. I am still learning from everyone I can, but I haven't found one specific person. Every time I have the chance to work with other lawyers, I learn something new. Other people's stories don't necessarily apply to me. When people talk about things I don't understand or know how to handle, I always try to find mentors, not just one person. I believe it's important to constantly look for opportunities to learn from everyone you work with.

When I was younger and just entering the legal industry, I looked up to the top lawyers by rankings. But after working with some of them in my field for many years, I realized that while there are certainly things to learn from them, they are no longer the role models I once thought they were. I don't think I have achieved as much as some other successful first-generation corporate lawyers, but what I have learned from surviving in BigLaw for almost 12 years is to always be humble and adaptable. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. As a partner at Baker McKenzie now, I am learning new things every day, and I enjoy the new perspectives that come with it. I find the people around me very inspirational, but I also want to become my own inspiration.

Do you use ChatGPT in your writing? How do you improve legal writing as a non-native speaker?

As a lawyer who’s not a native English speaker, it is important to work harder than your peers to improve your English language skills. You should not rely solely on tools like ChatGPT to get your work done. The process of improving your language skills requires hard work and efforts on your part. However, I do believe that ChatGPT, like iPhones and laptops, has its place. Eventually, everyone may use GPT or some other language tool to polish their writing.

If you're like me, I encourage you to not use this tool for work-related writing. Instead, focus on writing your own pieces and learning through the process. Relying too much on AI could be problematic if there are technical issues or errors. Writing is not just about grammar and vocabulary; it's also a way to organize your thoughts.

To improve your language skills, I suggest you read as much as you can. Non-fiction books are particularly helpful for developing independent thinking and expressing ideas from different perspectives. I personally enjoy reading history and try to read 100 books each year.

When I first started practicing law, I used other people's memos as a template to guide my writing. I would emulate their style and structure until I developed my own. I admire the writing style of a lawyer at my old firm. I tried to emulate his style. After a year or so, the lawyer came up to me and was like, “why do you write exactly like me?” I told him it’s intentional because I liked and learned from his style.

I’m not a native English speaker. My 7-year-old daughter probably speaks better English than I do. There’s a way to improve one’s written English though. Mastering a language takes time and efforts. As a non-native speaker, with hard work, practice and dedication, you can definitely improve your writing skills.