Season 2 Premiere: Yao Liu

Shareholder at Cavitch Familo & Durkin

Yao Liu

Shareholder at Cavitch Familo & Durkin

How did he become the first ever international intern turned shareholder at a firm founded in 1886?

When Yao was applying for internships during law school, most firms had stopped accepting new applications. He decided to cold show up at the doorsteps of the top 20 firms in Cleveland, Ohio, where he was studying. He went to the first firm on his list. The receptionist welcomed him, offered him coffee and informed him that the hiring partner was not in the office that day. He left his cover letter and resume. He thought it was a dead end.

As he was waiting for the elevator, he saw another gentleman was waiting as well. He looked at his watch, it was 3:30. He thought that this guy must not be a lawyer. No lawyer leaves work at 3:30. They struck up a conversation. As it turned out the guy was indeed an (estate planning) lawyer who has been with the firm for 25 years. He introduced Yao to the hiring partner a week later. During the subsequent interview, Yao wasn’t begging the firm for a job, but rather trying to figure out: why were his peers with stellar grades not being hired?

This is a story with a happy ending. Yao became the first intern the firm ever hired in its 137-year history. At the end of his internship, he received a job offer, and eventually, he made history once again by becoming the first shareholder with an international background at the firm.

How did he manage to persuade the hiring partner to offer him the internship? How did he turn the internship into a permanent position? Why indeed didn’t his peers with stellar grades secure jobs like he did?

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Where did you grow up?

I grew up in Shanxi, a province to the South of Beijing. I spent four years in Shanghai during my undergraduate studies.

Why did you choose to study law?

I enjoy problem-solving, logical reasoning, and interacting with people. Additionally, I have a keen interest in the historical, cultural, and social dimensions intertwined with the field of law. This is why I pursued law, specifically focusing on the civil law system. During my undergraduate studies, I delved into Chinese law and German law. Given the constraints of time and the need to make significant decisions relatively early in life, choosing to specialize in law has been a conscious decision for me.

What languages do you speak? And what do you do as a multilingual lawyer?

I am fluent in both Mandarin Chinese and English. While I initially attempted to learn French from my wife, I have since passed that task on to my daughter. As a lawyer, my specialization lies in business law, predominantly centered around transactional work. The majority of my cases involve cross-border transactions. I assist non-US entities in establishing their operations within the US. This includes managing their US investments, acquiring US companies and assets, and facilitating various deals such as distribution agreements and international trade arrangements. I also aid US-based entities in expanding their operations abroad, particularly in the Chinese market. My role encompasses guiding them through the process of forming joint ventures in China and providing support with licensing, trade agreements, and supply chain arrangements.

How do you leverage your language skills and your previous experience to develop new clients and meaningful business relationship?

Interestingly, when I first began practicing law in Ohio, it wasn't necessarily a top job market for Chinese students. Most of my Chinese classmates from law school, upon graduating, tended to gravitate towards moving to big cities like New York, Chicago and to the West Coast. Contrary to that trend, I chose to stay in Ohio. During my initial years of practice, I discovered that Ohio has a substantial number of manufacturers. It was quite surprising to realize that many of these manufacturers had established long-standing relationships with suppliers from China, conducting business with Chinese companies for a significant duration.

My journey commenced with an entity that had been engaged in business with China since the early 90s and had established two facilities in the country. By my second year of practice, I was deeply involved in aiding them with acquisitions of companies in China, as well as the sale of their company assets and operational components in that region. The business community in Ohio seemed to form a closely-knit network.

The foundation of my client base predominantly relies on referrals. By delivering commendable services to one client, word spreads to their acquaintances. This referral-based approach has been pivotal in cultivating my business. Growing up and receiving education in China equips me with the ability to perceive both sides of the transactional equation. When a US entity engages in business with a Chinese counterpart, I am adept at identifying potential gaps, be they cultural or legal in nature. On numerous occasions, I can decipher the underlying rationale behind a business decision and the desired outcomes. Witnessing the connection between two disparate components and successfully bridging that gap is what I find most interesting and most rewarding.

Can you give me an examples of how you have bridged the differences in business culture of the two markets that you're helping to connect?

I've had a long-term client who's an industry master investor with interests in numerous Chinese companies. One of these is situated in Shanghai, where I assisted in brokering the deal and establishing joint ventures in China.

A couple of years ago, I visited China at the request of my American client, who wanted me to tour the Chinese company he had invested in. He conveyed his dissatisfaction with the way the Chinese CEO was running the company and indicated his inclination to withdraw his investment.

His message to me was clear: go visit the site, assess their operations, and provide confirmation for his decision to exit. During my time in Shanghai, I had the opportunity to meet with the CEO of the Chinese company. The CEO took me on a tour of their facility, which, in my assessment, is highly successful. Their main product, an American brand, is exclusively distributed by the Chinese company in China. Additionally, the Chinese company holds ownership in the Chinese joint venture.

The CEO struck me as an adept businessperson who knows the market well. The Chinese company boasts an impressive network of distributors, a testament to their success. As I conversed with the CEO, he expressed a desire for me to convince my client that he lacks an understanding of the Chinese market and its intricacies.

The American CEO believed he is well-equipped to navigate the market and achieve favorable results. This viewpoint highlighted a disparity in expectations. From the American standpoint, there are concerns about the CEO's management style, rooted in the governance structures typical of US entities. Despite their years of experience in the Chinese market, there seems to be a gap in understanding the latitude required for the Chinese company to operate effectively.

From the Chinese perspective, the business is thriving, yielding profits, and meeting the needs of the market. The Chinese viewpoint is straightforward: if the business prospers in China, then it should be allowed to operate in a manner aligned with Chinese business practices. However, a key aspect that seems to be overlooked is the American company's involvement as a business partner. Even though the operations are primarily within China, the Chinese company should still acknowledge the American company's expectations and operate in a way that respects this partnership.

In this scenario, I find myself in the role of mediator, endeavoring to bridge the differences in operational approaches and market dynamics between the two entities. While I may not possess the same industry expertise as either party, I am striving to help both sides comprehend that reaching a compromise is vital. Both parties need to exhibit flexibility and mutual respect, which would likely lead to greater satisfaction compared to the alternative of severing ties with a lucrative joint venture.

Why did you choose to study law in the United States?

During my undergraduate years, I had the privilege of studying in Shanghai. This experience exposed me to numerous international companies operating in China. Engaging in conversations with various individuals, I began noticing a significant rise in international transactions, a trend less apparent in my smaller hometown. It was during this period that I developed a desire to actively participate in such endeavors. China just joined the World Trade Organization (WTO) at the time. With my relatively limited knowledge, I gathered that WTO regulations largely paralleled US laws. Recognizing this connection, I concluded that pursuing further education in the US, specifically delving into the common law system, was the logical step. Since I already possessed a foundation in Chinese law, expanding my expertise to encompass international dimensions became a necessity.

How did you find your first job in the United States?

During law school, my focus wasn't centered on securing immediate employment. In 2011, when I commenced my studies, my program at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland welcomed a total of 10 Chinese students. Among them, I was the sole individual who had arrived directly from China. This marked me as an outlier, as my classmates either held prior LLM degrees from the US, or had completed their undergraduate studies here. This translated to them having a more advanced grasp of English and a better understanding of the system than I did.

In Cleveland, I was confronted with a city that defied my preconceived notions. Having grown up in a small town and experienced the towering buildings and bustling activity of Shanghai, I had anticipated the US to consistently exceed those standards. However, my arrival in Cleveland was markedly different from my expectations.

Determined to gain a more authentic understanding of the US, I spent my initial summer traveling across the country, endeavoring to fathom its true essence. As I embarked on my second summer, I hadn't yet considered seeking employment opportunities. Unaware of the importance of securing internships during law school, I noticed my Chinese peers, who were a year or two ahead of me, ardently pursuing internships and externships. Yet few managed to get internships or jobs. This prompted me to question why. If they faced such difficulties, was I likely to encounter similar struggles?

I saw this as an opportunity to explore the reasons behind the scarcity of internships for international and Chinese students. To address this curiosity, I took a rather unconventional approach. I compiled a list of small and medium-sized law firms in Cleveland, selecting around 20 from the roster. Armed with a cover letter and my resume, I physically visited each of these firms, seeking to engage directly with hiring partners.

I aimed to understand their perspective and ascertain why internships seemed so elusive. My rationale was simple: engaging in face-to-face conversations could provide insights that emails might not capture. Among the firms I approached, my current employer, Cavitch Familo & Durkin was the very first on my list.

Upon arriving at their office on the 20th floor, the receptionist warmly inquired how she could assist me. This positive reception left a favorable impression. I introduced myself as a law student seeking an internship opportunity. Although the firm didn't traditionally offer a summer associate program, I persevered and requested to speak with the hiring partner, who was unfortunately absent that day. Leaving my resume and cover letter, I left the office with the hiring partner's business card.

While waiting for the elevator, I encountered another gentleman who’s waiting for the elevator. I looked at my watch, it’s 3:30. I thought: this guy can’t be a lawyer. No lawyer leaves office at 3:30. Striking up a conversation, I learned he was not only an attorney but he practiced estate planning law. He asked me what I was doing here. I told him that I was looking for an internship. He told me that he had been working for the firm for 25 years. They don’t hire interns. He suggested that I should talk to a guy. I reached out to the person he introduced me to. They scheduled an interview for me the next week. One week later, they offered me the internship that summer. In retrospect, I realize that my unconventional approach of direct engagement and curiosity played a pivotal role in landing the internship that set my legal career in motion.

What inspired you to cold show up at the firm’s door and managed to get an internship, which turned into a job later?

Reflecting on my past experiences, I believe a key factor for my approach was my unfamiliarity with established norms. Unaware of the conventional practice of sending numerous emails, I only sent a few during my first year of law school. I found emailing law firms as a law student seeking internships inefficient. However, this unfamiliarity also granted me an advantage over my classmates. My approach was shaped by my instincts rather than adhering to prescribed rules.

In retrospect, I understand that my motivations went beyond merely seeking an internship. I was driven by the desire to answer a pressing question: why were my outstanding Chinese peers struggling to secure internships at US law firms? My quest was fueled by the need to comprehend the underlying reasons behind this phenomenon. In essence, I was not begging the firm for a job; I was seeking a solution to this puzzle. I've come to realize that I approach goals with a mindset that seeks answers rather than mere outcomes. It has worked the best for me.

How did you manage to turn your internship into a permanent position?

I didn't set out with the intention of excelling in my work. When I undertook my internship, I found myself as the sole Chinese individual among a group of Americans at my firm. I sensed a genuine curiosity from my peers about how a Chinese lawyer navigated the legal landscape in the United States. My colleagues at the firm displayed a caring and supportive attitude. I wasn’t married at the time. My colleagues invited me to attend holiday celebrations, and they introduced me to their acquaintances, and even included me in their family activities.

I was grateful to be included in these events. This unique experience as the only Chinese individual in a predominantly American setting provided me with valuable insights into their way of life and their professional practices. The interactions were not solely through conversation; I learned a great deal by observing and participating. I strived to perform my tasks diligently and effectively. The supportive atmosphere at the firm encouraged my growth, fostering a space where learning was both encouraged and appreciated. I believe that this commitment to learning and contributing to the firm's endeavors played a pivotal role in their decision to extend a full-time job offer to me.

Did you find out the answer to your questions? Why aren’t your peers with stellar grades being hired?

One notable aspect is that my peers often tend to overly prioritize their studies. This sometimes leads to a lack of emphasis on building a network here. I've observed a contrast with many American students who are engaged in various organizations and activities. They seem to understand the importance of networking in addition to their academic pursuits. It is common for large firms to follow traditional hiring processes, selecting the top 3% or 5% of students. However, for Chinese students, there's often an additional challenge of needing to focus on improving English language skills alongside studying law. This dual focus is demanding, and while not impossible, it certainly poses difficulties.

Have you encountered any obstacles in your journey because of your international background? And if so, how did you overcome those obstacles?

Language was a significant hurdle for me in the beginning. Self-study comprised most of my efforts as comprehending professors and participating in study groups proved challenging. Even during discussions and seminars with American peers, I struggled to grasp their topics and conversations. Overcoming this obstacle required a change in perspective. Instead of viewing language as a barrier, I recognized it as a tool of expression. This shift in mindset allowed me to focus on the core aspects of law, issues, and solutions rather than dwelling on language barriers. Through this approach, I gradually improved my English proficiency.

Trust was another substantial challenge as a foreign attorney in the US. Establishing credibility with American clients proved difficult, given the natural inclination to prefer local attorneys. To combat this, I concentrated on the substance of the legal matters. My focus shifted from where I came from to the quality of my work. Over time, as I consistently delivered effective solutions, my background ceased being a perceived disadvantage and started being seen as a unique asset.

Clients began seeking insights based on my diverse background, especially in cases related to international considerations. I find immense satisfaction in offering holistic solutions to clients that combine legal acumen with business strategy. My approach involves understanding their overarching business goals and aligning legal solutions accordingly. This approach resonates well with clients who often seek more than just legal advice - they desire pragmatic strategies to facilitate their business objectives.

You became the first legal intern in your firm’s 137 years history. They offered you a permanent job at the end and you made partner as the first lawyer with international background. What does it take to become so good at what you do?

Avoid excessive self-focus and instead prioritize meeting the client’s needs. Take the example I provided earlier about young lawyers engaging in networking. If you approach it with a self-centered mindset, you might think, "I've met five people, and they could potentially refer clients to me." This approach is self-serving. Instead, consider going into a networking event with the intention of seeking solutions for your clients.

For instance, if you have a specific issue that needs resolution, or if you're aiming to expand Chinese companies' presence in the US and build their brands, that's where your focus should lie. My goal is to facilitate the growth of Chinese companies in the US market, helping them establish and enhance their brands. I'm actively working towards this by tackling questions like how a client can acquire a US entity, how they can set up operations, and manage relationships with employees, customers, and suppliers. While I might not have all the answers, I can guide them on building the necessary infrastructure.

This approach means that when I interact with people in various contexts, it's not about gaining immediate business referrals. Instead, it's about learning from them to better serve my clients. I want to understand how different aspects of their businesses work so that when a client comes to me with a challenge, I can provide effective guidance and connect them with the right resources. In essence, the key is to shift the focus away from yourself and direct it towards understanding the needs and challenges of others. By doing so, the benefits and opportunities will naturally follow.

You mentioned that you had to get over the language barrier in the very beginning of your journey. What did you do to improve your English in the beginning?

I recall a frustrating period when I wasn't making the progress in English that I had hoped for. During that time, I met a fellow Asian, a Chinese individual who had come to the US at a young age and now spoke English fluently, much like a native speaker. Curious about his approach, I asked him how he had managed to develop such strong English skills. His response was simple yet impactful: "I watched a lot of TV. It helped." Inspired by his words, I decided to implement this strategy. Instead of relying solely on laptops or computers, which can be challenging to regulate, I invested in a TV. While I couldn't connect it to cable services, I could still access news broadcasts. I made it a habit to watch the news on TV whenever I was at home. In the beginning, comprehending the content was a struggle. However, I remained consistent, and over the course of about six months, I experienced a remarkable transformation. One Sunday morning, I woke up and found myself understanding the news broadcasts without difficulty. It was truly a remarkable turning point.